Curse

Moloch Vein · Apr 04, 2009, 10:13 PM // 22:13

By the time the other foes have moved away, the original target is dead, which is when you reapply the hex on another target.

Xenomortis · Apr 04, 2009, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

So that's 1 guy, but won't the rest move away? MoP only hit adjacent, it doesn't hit the guy it's been hexed with.

If you were sensible, you put Barbs on the target - that pretty much ensures their death when used with physicals and a minion master/bomber. Thus Mark of Pain is recharged and ready for the next little cluster that usually forms.

Hatchet Child · Apr 04, 2009, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

So that's 1 guy, but won't the rest move away? MoP only hit adjacent, it doesn't hit the guy it's been hexed with.

The MoP'd target normally runs away as a sorta trying to save they're team-mates before the other decide to move.

Maybe it's just me, but this is what normally happens with me.

Moloch Vein · Apr 04, 2009, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatchet Child

The MoP'd target normally runs away as a sorta trying to save they're team-mates before the other decide to move.

Maybe it's just me, but this is what normally happens with me.

This is true, as I think most people who've been playing this sort of build have noticed.

I don't exactly know the motivation behind it, but yes, the marked target normally runs first. It's of course possible that it simply runs because it's taking a lot of coordinated damage; after all, everyone in the party is hitting him.

snaek · Apr 05, 2009, 01:12 AM // 01:12

this thread is a lost cause imo.
i thought it was already fairly common knowledge that physical teams deal the most dmg. but the important thing to remember is that efficiency is not vital to success.

yes barbs/mop necs can potentially deal out better dmg but it requires full specific build synergy, teamwork and coordination. ss still does require skill to be played effectively, but its more of a self-reliance than teamwork/coordination.

one of the only reasons barbs/mop has become mainstream today is because of h/h. yea it would be nice if all pugs, friend groups, guild groups, could organize perfectly for max efficiency. but in most cases, it takes a lot of work and like i said earlier, unnecessary for success.

versatility and self-reliance are the main reason ss is still ran today, and will continue to be ran.

i'm not sure if this post is trying to say: "do not run ss or ur bad". but really, the reasons you stated of why people run ss are terribly arrogant to say the least.

Xenomortis · Apr 05, 2009, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

one of the only reasons barbs/mop has become mainstream today is because of h/h. yea it would be nice if all pugs, friend groups, guild groups, could organize perfectly for max efficiency. but in most cases, it takes a lot of work and like i said earlier, unnecessary for success.

Even when run in a fairly disorganised group, Mark of Pain still easily exceeds the damage done by SS. A minion master (which is very common in groups) usually provides enough hits to exceed damage done by SS. If you have a ranger with Barrage, or a warrior with Hundred Blades, then Mark of Pain will dominate SS without the need for much coordination.
The only need for coordination comes from having to kill your target when you put Assassin's Promise on it - and that relies on both you (to time its placement correctly) and your friends to kill that target. Usually my guildies listen to me enough to do that.

I don't think anybody has argued that SS won't work. It will work and it will get you through most of the game. However, compared to other options, it's still subpar and far from optimal.
It's easy to run and fairly mindless, requiring only a bit of thought on where to place it. That is why it is run.

FoxBat · Apr 05, 2009, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The only need for coordination comes from having to kill your target when you put Assassin's Promise on it - and that relies on both you (to time its placement correctly) and your friends to kill that target. Usually my guildies listen to me enough to do that.

This is a big "IF" here for pugs, bad guilds and the like. You can still makes MoP work, but AP is much riskier/difficult to use.

Moloch Vein · Apr 05, 2009, 03:11 PM // 15:11

If you bring your own finishers and time AP correctly you can score nearly instant kills without relying too much on your team. Also as much as I hate the general idea behind Pain Inverter it's a skill that shines in bad groups or when you're really up against it.

Xenomortis · Apr 05, 2009, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

This is a big "IF" here for pugs, bad guilds and the like. You can still makes MoP work, but AP is much riskier/difficult to use.

If I were to join a PuG, I probably wouldn't bring an AP-MoP build for that reason, though it is very doable.
If your guild is 'bad', then this is a problem you should try to rectify.
There are ways round these problems though, that don't involve SS or any other reactive hex. Moloch pointed out that you can bring your own finishing skills. [Finish Him!] and [Necrosis] are viable options to make sure your target dies whilst under AP.

draxynnic · Apr 06, 2009, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

for both sides:
its not that reactive hexing sucks. its just that it has become almost pointless when you can just spike the ish out of things instead.

This is pretty much what I was thinking. There's a lot of fancy arguments and condescension (whether deserved or otherwise) when you can simply say the above and, guess what? You catch degen hexes as well. Which have sucked for even longer; reactive hexes still have the potential to do significant damage in the right circumstances, while I can't remember the last time I actually brought a degen hex for the actual degen rather than as a good target for Auspicious Incantation and/or a feeder hex for CoP.

At that point, you're just left with explaining why the narrow range of proactive hexes that are still useful are, in fact, still useful, but that's a fairly simple exercise.

With one exception, these days I wouldn't bring a character simply to do reactive hexes. They can be useful to fill out a bar that is already doing something else, however - especially when fighting enemies that may multi-trigger the hex.

That exception, and something that I'm surprised hasn't been discussed yet, is that of superboss fights where the paradigm "things die fast in PvE" breaks down. The classic example is Shiro - last I heard reactive hexes were still considered to be pretty much required when fighting him (in my opinion an overexaggeration, but they certainly help) while AP is pretty much worthless (the mission is normally over when he dies anyway), but I'm sure everyone can think of less extreme cases where killing a target quickly is easier said than done, giving damage-over-time effects, including reactive hexes, more time to operate.

EDIT: On the fun factor: It's not for everyone, and its not the same as the adrenaline rush from hex-AP-kill-newtarget, but there is a certain Mesmeric amusement to putting the enemy in a state where they're hurting themselves more than they hurt you. Never understood why they put so many in the Necromancer line, though; I've always viewed (and played) Necromancers as being more direct.

Xenomortis · Apr 06, 2009, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

They can be useful to fill out a bar that is already doing something else, however - especially when fighting enemies that may multi-trigger the hex.

That exception, and something that I'm surprised hasn't been discussed yet, is that of superboss fights where the paradigm "things die fast in PvE" breaks down. The classic example is Shiro - last I heard reactive hexes were still considered to be pretty much required when fighting him (in my opinion an overexaggeration, but they certainly help) while AP is pretty much worthless (the mission is normally over when he dies anyway)

Using reactive hexes to fill out an offensive bar, shouldn't really be necessary but I can understand your comment. It's when reactive hexes form to main part of your damage output that you should closely examine what you are doing.

In the case of powerful endgame boss-fights, well I wouldn't consider that general PvE and therefore, these general PvE builds fall apart. It's here where you require more specific builds and skills like Pain Inverter or Spoil Victor dominate. However, something like Barbs is still a useful addition.

_Nihilist_ · Apr 06, 2009, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatchet Child

The MoP'd target normally runs away as a sorta trying to save they're team-mates before the other decide to move.

Maybe it's just me, but this is what normally happens with me.

I used to use a Warrior/Necro build to farm Trolls with MoP, back almost 2 and a half years ago, and they behaved this way as well. The enemies around the hexed foe will sit there and take the Shadow damage from MoP, the hexed foe will run for the hills, which is why YMLaD! is a great skill to take along - KD into Cripple, the hexed foe isn't going anywhere fast enough to remove the threat of MoP.

draxynnic · Apr 07, 2009, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Using reactive hexes to fill out an offensive bar, shouldn't really be necessary but I can understand your comment. It's when reactive hexes form to main part of your damage output that you should closely examine what you are doing.

In the case of powerful endgame boss-fights, well I wouldn't consider that general PvE and therefore, these general PvE builds fall apart. It's here where you require more specific builds and skills like Pain Inverter or Spoil Victor dominate. However, something like Barbs is still a useful addition.

This is true, but these days many high-end areas do include a boss fight of some kind at the end (UW and FoW being obvious, but not the only, counterexamples). So in situations where build efficiency actually matters rather than simply being 'anything will do', there's often a powerful boss involved.

Of course, for some of those powerful bosses reactive hexes won't work anyway (for a variety of reasons) but on others, they do.

And yes, Barbs is useful pretty much anywhere that it's worth the effort to lay down hexes at all if you have a strongly physical party.

HigherMinion · Dec 01, 2009, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

This is a big "IF" here for pugs, bad guilds and the like. You can still makes MoP work, but AP is much riskier/difficult to use.

Assassin's Promise is never risky. You just have to be better, and know when to use it, anticipate when the enemy will die, judge the party's damage, etc.

If you have only one physical hitting your target + Ebon sin, you will get it down to half health, then Finish Him and as if by magic, your target will die. And in that time Mark of Pain or even just Barbs would be able to deal more damage than Spiteful Spirit.

With barbs on a target, with "By Ulral's Hammer!", this it what you will see on your screen with 3~ physicals attacking your target.

21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21- DEAD. AP Recharge; recast. 21-21-21-21-21-21-21

Spiteful spirit will however do this; With Reckless Haste:

45-45-45-45-45-45 (over the course of about 10 seconds) by which time your team would have taken the target out with other damage sources.

Mark of Pain is the Proactive version of Spiteful, and will act like Barbs in the example. only it will be all adjacent foes taking 51~damage instead of one foe taking 21.

Spiteful Spirit= Adjacent
Mark of Pain= Adjacent.

No one can win the argument that SS is better anywhere if your party is built around Mark of Pain. Nothing can be built around a reactive hex.

Calista Blackblood · Dec 01, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Unlocked for now..

snaek · Dec 03, 2009, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by higher minion

With barbs on a target, with "By Ulral's Hammer!", this it what you will see on your screen with 3~ physicals attacking your target.

21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21-21- DEAD. AP Recharge; recast. 21-21-21-21-21-21-21

lolwut? it takes you 41 hits to kill a target? depending on what weapons/classes used, that'd be roughly 10-15secs for 3 phys classes to kill 1 target. my sin can solo drop a target in under 2 combos without barbs (under 5 secs now thx to the 1/2s activation skills). if attacking a target hexed with barbs, at most 5-7 triggers. 100dmg @ a 10en/2s cast... you might as well just cast necrosis if you need the single-target dmg that badly. the slow cast time/long duration of barbs makes it suitable for one thing only really--bosses; for everything else, theres mark of pain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by higher minion

Nothing can be built around a reactive hex.

hexway is actually pretty decent to run for h/h. i would consider sabway to be built around "reactive" style. ss and sabway rose to popularity because "reactive" style gameplay is quite easy and effortless (another reason for ss's popularity was due to its effectiveness in solo/3man/5man farming). the only downside is that it is not the fastest method, but does time really matter outside of sc's? reactive-style can clear over 90% of the game effortlessly--and thats good enough for me.

Hatchet Child · Dec 03, 2009, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Necrosis, Waste of a PvE slot.

qvtkc · Dec 03, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Why do people keep calling Spiteful Spirit "reactive"? The AI will keep doing stuff until it dies. When you cast it, you know what will happen. Therefore, SS is more or less a degen hex, except the damage from it comes in chunks and affect adjacent enemies as well.

Xenomortis · Dec 03, 2009, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Why do people keep calling Spiteful Spirit "reactive"? The AI will keep doing stuff until it dies. When you cast it, you know what will happen. Therefore, SS is more or less a degen hex, except the damage from it comes in chunks and affect adjacent enemies as well.

It is reactive. It reacts to the enemies actions.
If that enemy is moving, SS does no damage.
If that enemy is knocked down, SS does no damage.
If that enemy is interrupted, SS does no damage.

Just because the enemy can be relied upon to try and attack as often as it can in PvE (unless it tries to flee AoE stuff) doesn't make it any less of a reactive hex.

And it's still painfully slow.

HigherMinion · Dec 04, 2009, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

lolwut? it takes you 41 hits to kill a target? depending on what weapons/classes used, that'd be roughly 10-15secs for 3 phys classes to kill 1 target. my sin can solo drop a target in under 2 combos without barbs (under 5 secs now thx to the 1/2s activation skills). if attacking a target hexed with barbs, at most 5-7 triggers. 100dmg @ a 10en/2s cast... you might as well just cast necrosis if you need the single-target dmg that badly. the slow cast time/long duration of barbs makes it suitable for one thing only really--bosses; for everything else, theres mark of pain.

You... Counted exactly how many 21s I put? I think you missed the exaggeration I was trying to get across. With 3-5 physicals attacking a regular foe in HM with Barbs; they will drop in under 3-4 seconds depending on the support they've got. And yes, Barbs will do more damage than Necrosis.

The lazy playing style is rather silly. Don't you want to optimize your style? If you say you're lazy, it's like saying the game you play is just a grind you have to complete.

Edit: By the way, the example of barbs was supposed to show how much more damage it adds overtime and how quickly. Yes, the enemy would have died before... It would not have died from SS, but from something else hurting it while SS was apparently there.

Also; SS does little damage it would only be good if the target DIDN'T attack, and it was used as a shutdown... But alas the AI aren't smart gents.